Podcast Host: Tammi Mac
Guests: Dr. Staci Atkins & Dr. Alixis Rhodes
Tammi Mac – The 3 time NAACP award winning, Tammi Mac was hand-picked by the legendary Stevie Wonder to host the number one afternoon radio show, “The Tammi Mac Show” from 3-7pm daily on his Los Angeles owned 102.3 KJLH. Tammi Mac is voted best radio personality in Los Angeles by the Los Angeles Times. Her one woman show, Bag Lady has garnered best writer, best producer and best one person show and the spin-off webseries Bag Lady is award winning too. Her radio career has extended to television with her talk show, The Business of Being Black with Tammi Mac on the digital network Fox Soul, daily.
Staci Atkins, Psy.D. – For over 15 years, Dr. Staci Atkins has worked to promote mental health and wellness in various capacities, including as an Adjunct Professor at Los Angeles Southwest College, a clinician and clinical supervisor for the Los Angeles County Department of Mental Health, and providing crisis intervention as a member of the Psychiatric Mobile Response Team.
Alixis Rhodes, Psy.D. – Dr. Alixis S. Rhodes is a Liberation Psychologist from Reading, Pennsylvania. She currently has a doctorate in Applied Clinical Psychology, a master’s degree in Forensic Psychology, and a bachelor’s degree in Criminal Justice. Dr. Rhodes is a world traveler and has traveled to over 33 countries. She is an Assistant Professor for the Applied Clinical Psychology program at TCSPP. She is also one of the founders of No Black Girl Left Behind (NBGLB). It was created due to the perceived notion that black women do not support each other. No Black Girl Left Behind motto is to connect, uplift, and inspire. Dr. Rhodes is the proud owner/CEO of Liberated Minds Collective LLC. The Liberated Minds Collective is a mental wellness agency that seeks to create inclusive safe spaces that provides trainings & healing circles.
Subscribe to podcast here.
Full Episode Transcript
Tammi Mac:
Hello and welcome to our very first podcast. What podcast is that you ask? Of course, it is You are Not Alone. Your guide to mental wellness. I’m Tammi Mac. Hello, everybody. Let’s get well, mentally. Yes. This is a joint production of KJLH and The Chicago School, which has been training and educating multicultural component mental healthcare professionals for nearly 50 years. 50 years? Oh, we got to learn something today, right?
Our program is committed to educating our community about mental health and wellness and normalizing conversations about our mental health. Thanks to the pandemic, mental health has become an important topic. We all probably recognize how important our mental wellness is to our health and to our lives. After going through the isolation, the anxiety and fear that we experienced during the last two years, it has not been easy for any of us.
Our program will explore mental health and wellness issues that impact us, as well as explore ways we can improve our wellness, and that’s a good thing. Every week, I, Tammi Mac will be joined by mental and behavioral health experts who will share their experience and expertise to help us on our journey to good health and satisfying lives. Oh, I can’t wait. I’m excited. I’m joined today with two brilliant, and I do mean successful psychologists based in Southern California. Dr. Alixis Rhodes and Dr. Staci Atkins. Dr. Rhodes is a liberation psychologist originally from Reading, Pennsylvania. That’s Reading, right?
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Reading.
Tammi Mac:
Reading. That’s what I thought. I was like, why does that sound so wrong? Why? Why does that sound so wrong? So, you’ll get me on the right track, that’s for sure. Reading, Pennsylvania. She currently has a doctorate in applied clinical psychology, a master’s degree in forensic psychology, and a bachelor’s degree in criminal justice. Dr. Rhodes is a world traveler and has visited more than 33 countries. She is an assistant professor for the Applied Clinical Psychology program at The Chicago School and is also one of the founders of No Black Girl Left Behind. Welcome, Dr. Rhodes.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Thank you.
Tammi Mac:
Yes. Dr. Staci Atkins is a psychologist and licensed clinical social worker in the Los Angeles area. As a promoter of mental health and wellness for over 20 years, Dr. Atkins has worked in various capacities including community mental health, as an adjunct professor at Los Angeles Southwest College. I did my one woman show at Southwest College.
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Oh, you did?
Tammi Mac:
Yes, I did. And as a crisis counselor at UCLA Rape Treatment Center. She also has a private therapy practice in the West Los Angeles area where her areas of clinical focus include trauma informed care, women’s health, and psychoeducational testing. Dr. Atkins is also a graduate of The Chicago School. Welcome, Dr. Atkins. Thank you, Dr. Rhodes. Let’s start with you. I’ve never heard of liberation psychology. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yeah. Liberation psychology is clinical practices that aim to alleviate oppression practices, right? So, it’s culturally appropriate to the population that they’re serving. And the reason why that I lean more towards liberation psychology is because I like to practice in a way that is appropriate to my clients. For instance, individuals that want practices or therapeutic services that is leaning towards their gender identity, their racial identity, that has a little bit more of understanding, that’s the way that I like to practice with my individuals.
Tammi Mac:
It’s with the understanding that whoever this particular client is has been oppressed-
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yes.
Tammi Mac:
… or perhaps-
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Marginalized.
Tammi Mac:
Yes. Marginalized. Comes from an underserved community-
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yes.
Tammi Mac:
… possibly, and has different types of mental illnesses than people in the mainstream, I would say, would have. Is that where we’re going?
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yes. But we also like to treat individuals, not just treat the symptoms, but also the systems that they’re in.
Tammi Mack
Ooh.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Right? So, we’re not just looking at the individuals based off of their depression or the anxiety, but the actual systems that they have to come across each and every day and the environments that they’re in. That’s the way that we like to look and view the world so that we can make sure that they understand privilege, power and the way that they participate in those different factors.
Tammi Mack:
Oh, that’s good. That’s good. It reminds me of this nurse. This nurse was handling a patient, a Black patient, a Black woman, and the Black woman kept doing this and so the nurse… Have you heard of the.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yes.
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Oh, yeah.
Tammi Mac:
And so the nurse went to the desk and said that the woman needed to be put in some type of mental forum or what have you. And the Black nurse said, “Well, she’s doing what?” And she said, “She’s hitting her head. She just keeps hitting her head. So, we need to put her in a space where mental people are so we can help her.” And the Black nurse said, “No, no, no, no, no, no. Is this woman Black?” And the nurse said, “Yes, she’s Black.” She said, “She’s not hitting her head. That’s the way we scratch our scalp when we wear weave.”
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yes.
Tammi Mac:
That’s what Black women do. And if you are not a Black woman-
Dr. Staci Atkins:
You wouldn’t have known.
Tammi Mac:
… you would have no idea what’s going on. You would think we need some type of mental therapy, right?
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yes.
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Yeah.
Tammi Mac:
So, it does matter when you talk about liberation psychology. It absolutely matters.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yes.
Tammi Mac:
Yeah. That’s amazing. Dr. Atkins, tell me, what is mental wellness? What is that? We talk about it a lot, but do we really know what it is?
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Well, I think mental wellness is being mentally and emotionally healthy so that your mind is working in your best interest. It’s so important for you to be able to interact with other people, make decisions, react to stress in a mentally healthy way. Otherwise, you’re going to make bad decisions and move through the world in a different way that is not necessarily healthy for you.
Tammi Mac:
What are some things we can do to improve our mental health?
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Well, surrounding yourself with other people that you like spending time with. We need a sense of community, right?
Tammi Mac:
Yeah.
Dr. Staci Atkins:
A lot of people, especially during the pandemic, I think that was one of the main reasons why we struggled, because we’re not individuals who are used to being in isolation. We move as a collective. Also, taking time out to take care of yourself. I think as Black people often are taking care of other people and being strong Black women, and we don’t take enough time because we don’t feel like we have enough time to practice our own self-care.
Tammi Mac:
There are definitely more and more Black women who are caretakers now.
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Yeah.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yes.
Tammi Mac:
So, that definitely puts a mental stress and pressure on you that’s different than anything you have in your regular life.
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Yeah, exactly.
Tammi Mac:
Yeah. What exactly is… And this going to is going to seem so simple for you doctors, but for us regular folk, what is therapy? What is that?
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Well, it’s a form of treatment like any other treatment. You have physical therapy, but it’s catering towards getting you mentally healthy, teaching you how to deal with stress, analyzing maybe problems that you have or decisions that you make. Coming up with ways to cope with things, developing new perspectives.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Definitely developing new perspectives.
Tammi Mac:
Yeah, I like that. How does one develop a new perspective? Can you give me an example?
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yeah. Depending on how you look at a situation, for instance, if you are experiencing anxiety because you are about to get a new job and you haven’t been in the job field for a very long time-
Tammi Mac:
Or lose a job.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
… or you lost a job, so you’re very anxious. We will change your way of looking at the situation in a way of looking, instead of looking at the glass half empty, it’s more half full. Just having that individual look at their perspective in a way that, “Hey, you are going up for a new job, and that’s a good thing. And let’s look at different ways for you to practice these different tips of interviewing. I know that you haven’t been in the field for a very long time, but what about you going for this new job feels different? Are you scared that you’re going to lose the job again? Is it fear that you’re experiencing right now?”
Tammi Mac:
That reminds me, because when I first moved to Los Angeles, I was really down and out and kind of depressed. And they say that moving is one of the higher rankings of depression, and-
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
You’re losing you sense of community. It’s a big life transition.
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Right.
Tammi Mac:
And I was trying to figure out what is it that I can do to bring myself up to the place that I used to be? I found that I did a list of, “When was I happy? Why was I happy? Where was I happy?”
Dr. Staci Atkins:
That’s brilliant.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yeah, that’s good.
Dr. Staci Atkins:
You developed that on your own. Maybe you should be a therapist.
Tammi Mac:
I couldn’t figure it out, and I didn’t have no money for no therapy.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Right.
Tammi Mac:
So, how do you find a good therapist?
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
That’s an important question. There’s three things that you can do. The first thing is, are you using insurance or are you paying out of pocket? Because that’s going to narrow your search or broaden your search. If you are using out of pocket, of course that means that’s going to broaden your search. If you are within network, then you can contact your provider, your insurance provider, and ask them to send you a list. And you can specifically tell them, “Hey, I want X, Y, and Z.” So, for instance, if you’re looking for someone that is appropriate to your gender identity, your race-
Tammi Mac:
You can request that without it being discriminatory?
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Well, you can just say, “Hey, I’m looking for a Black therapist or a brown therapist, or I’m looking for someone that understands that I’m part of the LGBTQ+ community,” and they’re able to send you a list.
Tammi Mac:
That’s good to know that you can ask for that.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
You can. I mean, I shop all my providers making sure that they understand where I’m coming from as all my different identities intersect. So, it’s important for you to shop in that manner.
Tammi Mac:
No, that’s good. Yeah.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
The first two things is, are you looking for a therapist within network, out of network, or you’re paying? Also, are they appropriate to your intersectionality, your different identities? And then three, you need to ask them, once you talk with them, see if they are providing you therapy within, like what does therapy look like with them? Is it cognitive behavioral therapy? Meaning are they going to give you homework or are they more of cultural based, meaning are they going to look and see and try to tie in music, dance, art? So, just something that-
Tammi Mac:
I didn’t know that those things existed.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yes.
Tammi Mac:
I would’ve certainly searched for a therapist that tied it in with dance, music, art.
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Drumming.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Movement. Movement is big.
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Trauma yoga.
Tammi Mac:
Yeah. Yeah. In grad school, we did a lot of movement and I think that helped me. And I don’t think people understand the different options that they have when it comes to therapists or therapy.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yes.
Tammi Mac:
You talked about cultural. I want to ask Dr. Atkins, why is it important to be culturally competent?
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Well, I don’t think that you can appropriately assist someone if you don’t have a working knowledge of their experience or what they’re going through. And for many people, like myself included, that’s so important. I use my insurance to get a therapist too. At the time, I don’t think the websites were as savvy as they are now. And I went through all the people, and if they didn’t have a picture, I looked to see if I thought their last name might be Black-
Tammi Mac:
We always looking for the picture. Where the picture?
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Yeah. If there wasn’t a picture, I was like, “Johnson, maybe. Let me Google this.” And that’s exactly how I did it.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yes.
Tammi Mac:
Jones, Jackson. That’s me right there. [inaudible 00:13:12].
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Yeah. But you need to find someone who has the qualities and the understanding about things that are important to you.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yes.
Dr. Staci Atkins:
That you can connect with because it’s a very personal and intimate relationship that you develop with your therapist.
Tammi Mac:
What do you think is the biggest mental health issue facing the Black community or Black people?
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Personally, I think it’s the stigma.
Tammi Mac:
Of? Of mental wellness or of therapy?
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Both. Mental health issues and getting therapy and seeking help. I think that it’s looked at a lot differently than physical health. Even it seems like substance abuse issues, it’s a lot more acceptable to have that and go to treatment than to have mental health issues and have your family or friends support you in getting treatment for that.
Tammi Mack:
Yeah. What is the stigma that’s attached to that?
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Well, the stigma that is-
Tammi Mac:
Why are we so afraid? What is it that we are afraid of when we tell our parents or our siblings, “I think I have some mental health issues.” What is it that they are going, “Oh, Lord. Uh-uh, you’ll be all right. Just call on Jesus.”
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Yeah, that’s it.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
I’m glad that you brought that up because, A, if you come from a spiritual or religious background, they’ll say either, “Are you fighting demons or is it the devil?” And then also, we can be frank, within the Black community, they’ll label you as crazy, right?
Tammi Mac:
For sure.
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Yeah.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
So, you don’t want to be labeled as crazy, and therefore, I’m not going to bring up these issues. Or if you do go to therapy and you discuss it with your parents, then they’ll come back and look at you like, “I did everything that I could.”
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Yeah.
Tammi Mac:
They’re very offended by it.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Very offended by it. And you don’t want to lose the support of your family, so you just keep everything bottled in. And that is, of course, is going to spill out eventually.
Tammi Mac:
We are talking about centuries.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Generational trauma.
Tammi Mac:
Generational, right, exactly. How is it possible to remove that?
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Because of epigenetics. Because we, it’s learned behavior and we’re actually transmitting and through generations the different traumas from grandmother to mother to grandchildren. I think that once we start our own healing, we can change it genetically. We can change it.
Tammi Mac:
But how do you break the chain? What’s the first step in breaking the chain?
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
It’s admitting, “I need help. I can’t bear this alone.” As a Black woman, not having that notion of, “I am a strong Black woman.” No, I need my community. That’s the reason why myself and the two other Black women created No Black Girl Left Behind because we needed community when we were in grad school. It’s just admitting and understanding that, “Hey, I do have a problem and I need help.”
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Mm-hmm.
Tammi Mac:
Right. Let’s talk about the importance of the mind body connection, which is The Chicago School uses the phrase, “There is no health without mental health.” Talk about the meaning of that.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yes. We forget that our mind is connected to the rest of the body. We treat it like it’s-
Tammi Mac:
It’s one thing.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
It’s one thing.
Tammi Mac:
It is literally one thing.
Dr. Staci Atkins:
For sure.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yeah, it is. I always tell my students, I used to tell my patients this, that I wake up grateful every day that I am sane. I wake up grateful every day that I have a clear mind and clear body and soul, is all connected. Therefore, you have to treat it just like you treat any other health issues or health wellness. You have physical, well, you go every day… Well, not every day, but every year you go for a checkup, right? Or you go to your OB GYN every year or two. So, just like you have to check in with your mental health every year or every six months. And even, I always tell people, “You don’t have to go to therapy just because something is wrong. You can go to therapy when something is going right. When you’re going to a new level.” So, you don’t mess-
Tammi Mac:
Oh, I didn’t know that.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yeah. So, you don’t mess it up, right?
Tammi Mac:
That what I be going to God on, ’cause I be like, “Thank the Lord, I’m going to another level.” I didn’t know I had to go to therapy on that one, too.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yes. And that’s another thing. People try to weaponize the word therapy now.
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Yeah.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
And we have to look at it like, no, you don’t have to go to therapy when you’re quote unquote, “unwell”. But say for instance that, “Hey, I’m about to go into this new six figure, seven figure job. My life is about to change. I need someone to talk to about this life experience that I’m about to embark on.” So, therapy is not just for individuals that are unwell.
Tammi Mack:
That is so good, Dr. Rhodes. That is good.
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Yeah. Definitely.
Tammi Mac:
Okay. All right. Dr. Atkins, there are serious issues regarding access to quality mental health care. Especially in the Black community, right? The brown communities. So, why and how can we improve those?
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Well, I think like Dr. Rhodes was saying, it makes a big difference whether or not you have insurance. A lot of people in our community, we’re overrepresented in terms of not having access to quality care and insurance. That’s another issue. And then unfortunately, Black psychologists or therapists only make up about 4%. We’re encouraging people to go to therapy and look for culturally competent therapists, but the reality is there aren’t that many options, which is unfortunate in terms of Black mental health professionals.
Tammi Mac:
Why do you think that is though?
Dr. Staci Atkins:
I think that there’s so much stigma around mental health, it’s not a profession that-
Tammi Mac:
That we choose to go into.
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Yeah.
Tammi Mac:
Wow.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
And that’s why Black men make up less than 1%. And that is the reason why-
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Yeah.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
And that’s the reason why The Chicago School, they have the 1% fund where we’re trying to attract Black men into the profession so they can be a help to the community.
Tammi Mac:
When you say Black men are less than 1%, you mean less than 1% of therapist?
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Therapists, yeah.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yes.
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Yeah.
Tammi Mack:
And I think, look, I ain’t no therapist. Y’all the experts, but I’m just a radio lady. But from what I hear on the streets, the streets is talking. But perhaps that is why Black men are uncomfortable with going to therapy-
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Right, right, right.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yes,
Tammi Mac:
… because there is nobody like this-
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
That represents them.
Tammi Mac:
… to talk to them and they don’t want to talk to-
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Yeah.
Tammi Mack
[inaudible 00:19:46] tell us they problems, right?
Dr. Staci Atkins:
Yeah. We already have a distrust of the system, rightfully so. And we were talking about earlier, a lot of our behaviors and things that we do can easily be misunderstood and pathologized.
Tammi Mac:
Oh, that’s good.
Dr. Staci Atkins:
That’s a huge problem because that affects the way you’re treated by other people. The diagnoses they give you, maybe the medication they try to prescribe you all based on something that’s cultural, but just misdiagnosed by people who aren’t culturally competent.
Dr. Alixis Rhodes:
Yeah.
Tammi Mac:
Yeah. That’s great. Thank you for joining us today. I want to thank you both, my guest Dr. Staci Atkins, and also Dr. Alixis Rhodes for being on our program. And we hope that you learned a few things. We ended by talking about Black men in mental health and their wellness. And we are going to talk about it extensively in our next podcast, so you definitely want to be into episode two as well, especially if you have a husband, a son, a coworker that’s getting on your nerves and you need to figure out thing out too, right?
All of that. We hope you learned something. Listen, if you want to find out more, you can visit our website. Just go to the website and that website will be posted later on in the show. Thank you so much for being here. You are not alone. This is your guide to mental wellness. I’m Tammi Mac.
Mental Health Resources: