Podcast Host: Tammi Mac
Guests: Dr. Tammi Gray
Tammi Mac – The 3 time NAACP award winning, Tammi Mac was hand-picked by the legendary Stevie Wonder to host the number one afternoon radio show, “The Tammi Mac Show” from 3-7pm daily on his Los Angeles owned 102.3 KJLH. Tammi Mac is voted best radio personality in Los Angeles by the Los Angeles Times. Her one woman show, Bag Lady has garnered best writer, best producer and best one person show and the spin-off webseries Bag Lady is award winning too. Her radio career has extended to television with her talk show, The Business of Being Black with Tammi Mac on the digital network Fox Soul, daily.
Tammi Gray, Ph.D. – Dr. Tammi Gray is an equity-minded social psychologist, educator, and transformation leader with expertise in organizational business psychology, global technology operations, and higher education. Dr. Gray’s professional journey of more than 20 years of combined experience as a Technology Leader in Software Engineering and Professor of Organizational Leadership & Management, she has honed skills in understanding human behavior and leveraging it to enhance group performance and achieve organizational goals. She received her Ph.D. in Organizational Leadership from The Chicago School of Professional Psychology, Los Angeles, CA, and a Master of Science in Leadership & Management from the University of La Verne. In 2021 Dr. Gray received the Women of Color STEM Technology All-Star Award for her significant contributions to the technology profession.
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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Tammi Mac:
Hi, everyone. I’m Tammi Mac and welcome back to another wonderful podcast that just simply proves that You Are Not Alone. This is your guide to mental wellness, and don’t we all need that in our lives today? Okay. This podcast is a production of The Chicago School, which has been training and educating multiculturally-competent mental healthcare professionals for nearly 50 years. Yes, our program is committed to educating our community about mental health and wellness, and normalizing conversations about our mental health. I am so on board with that. Our program will explore mental health and wellness issues that impact us, as well as explore ways we can improve our wellness. So every week I will be joined by mental and behavioral health experts who will share their experiences and expertise to help us on our journey to good health and satisfying lives.
Today, our podcast is about leadership and the challenges black and African American business and organizational leaders face on their road to success. This is a good one, people. I am so ready for this one. Diversity, equity and inclusion, better known as DEI, it has become a billion-dollar business. Did you know that? Because I didn’t know that. Billion-dollar business? Okay. But it is delivering or whether is it delivering for the companies and organizations that are investing in it? That’s the question. People of color who constitute 40% of the United States population are still underrepresented in business, holding only 16% of Fortune 500 board seats, and only three, that’s one hand y’all, three CEOs of Fortune 500 companies are black. We definitely talking about that.
I’m joined today with social psychologist, Dr. Tammi Gray, the founder of her own consulting practice, as well as an educator in the field of organizational psychology. Now, Dr. Tammi Gray is an equity-minded social psychologist, educator and transformation leader with expertise in organizational business psychology, global technology operations, and higher education. Oh, my goodness, this woman is all that and then some, okay? Dr. Gray’s professional journey of more than 20 years of combined experience as a technology leader in software engineering. I’m so impressed right now. This is ridiculous, but just the best, right? And professor of organizational leadership and management. So she has honed skills in understanding human behavior and leveraging it to enhance group performance and achieve organizational goals. She received her PhD in organizational leadership from the Chicago School of Psychology, or I should say, of professional psychology Los Angeles, and a master of science in leadership and management from the University of La Verne. In 2021, Dr. Gray received the Woman of Color STEM technology All Star Award for her significant contributions to the technology profession. Please welcome Dr. Tammi Gray.
Hey, Dr. Gray.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
Thank you. Hello, Tammi. It is so good to be here. I’m just very excited about joining in on this opportunity and sharing about our mental health and the wellness. And hoping that our listeners, we can advance not only the discussion, but improve on our wellness.
Tammi Mac:
Yeah. The first thing I want to ask, because looking at your bio and all the wonderful thing, you have a wealth… Sister got a wealth of education, y’all. Don’t play with her. That’s all I got to say. Do not play with Dr. Gray, okay? What is technology leader in software engineering? It doesn’t sound to me like something most black people go into, let alone black women, Dr. Gray.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
You’re absolutely correct. And I do want to share that I ended up in the information technology field by a fluke. I was working in human resources management. I had worked my way up from a coordinator to a corporate recruiter. I’d worked as a senior HR manager. And when I found myself laid off from the industry, and this was over 13 years ago, I didn’t know what I was going to do. I had just received my master’s and I had this long trajectory planned to be in human resources management. And someone that I’d worked with in the past reached out to me and they said they had a project manager position available. And I said, “Oh, I don’t know anything about technology.” And they said, “Well, you do now because you helped us do implementations for our CRM systems when you worked as a senior manager of HR.” So I had an interview, I flew out to Ohio, and from there was my journey.
Tammi Mac:
Wow. So you have so much knowledge, you got knowledge you don’t even know you have.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
Right. And you’re right. I’m glad we’re talking about that because there may be someone listening that doesn’t know… At that time, I had a linear view.
Tammi Mac:
Oh, good. That’s good.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
Yeah, I had linear view of what my future looked like, and I didn’t realize I had multi-dimensional skills, I had leadership skills, I had technology skills, I had a vast array of operational leadership experience. And so I flew out to Akron, Ohio, and I worked independently as a consultant for two years. And what I did was develop the organization’s standard operating procedures, developed their quality-assurance plan, metrics and everything for their call centers to measure those calls and the delivery. And I also project manage and implementation of a customer relationship management system.
Tammi Mac:
Ooh, I’m tired already. Oh, lord. I’ll tell you, black women, y’all just be doing the most.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
So you know what? And I think when we have opportunities that come to us that are by the way of unconventional, we have to know how to capture that. Because what I saw was I didn’t have a degree in computer science, although I had a master’s degree, but it was in leadership and management. I didn’t fit the box, so to speak. But I will be honest, through sponsorship is how I got to where I am, because from there, working independently in the tech field, I started working for some of the largest global tech companies and individuals took me under their wings and they taught me. They taught the terminology and concepts in technology. I started working side by side with engineers. So what I decided to do was leverage my leadership skills and learn how to lead those individuals. So I didn’t have to learn how to do coding. I know the language, I can speak to it to executives. I’m at the table with the C-suite executives.
Tammi Mac:
Look, in the first, what, less than five minutes, we’ve already learned that we could possibly have skills that we are completely unaware of because we’re thinking linear, and we really have to jump out of that box and see what else that we encompass within ourselves to move into those spaces that don’t have minorities in those spaces. So now I need to know what a social psychologist is.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
And I have to start from the business psychologist piece because it is a segment of that. So business psychologist, some of the listeners may be more familiar with the term industrial organizational psychology, and sometimes they use the acronyms IO. Well, it’s all under that same family. Business psychologists, I started there and I didn’t realize that it wasn’t for kind of the focus on people. So business psychology, they focus on studying human behaviors, but in the workplace setting. And they help companies apply it, so they’re more human resources management, training and development-
Tammi Mac:
Which is where you come from.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
That’s where I come from. So I married those two. And during my journey in my doctoral studies, I realized that I love the people piece. Business psychology is more quantifying. They do assessments and testing and things of that nature. The social psychology, I transitioned into that because I enjoy learning about people, the human behavior, how they work, how they operate in social settings. So what I do is help organizations with how do their groups work through their dynamics? How do they communicate better? I have a strong foundation in all of the intelligences, emotional intelligence, cultural intelligence, social intelligence.
Tammi Mac:
Did you have to go back to school for that?
Dr. Tammi Gray:
No, I just do continual training. And as a PhD, we’re intellectuals, so we’re always reading. We’re always reading, our friends hate us, they tell us to turn off our brains and things of that nature. We’re very analytical. But then also being a professor of organizational leadership and management, I have to stay current with what’s trending now and happening, and as a practitioner applying that. And so my students are able to apply with their learning in the classroom, in the workplace and in their life. So it’s kind of a dual fold.
Tammi Mac:
Okay. So we definitely needed to know what business psychology was before moving into the social.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
Yes. Yes.
Tammi Mac:
So thank you for separating the two and letting us know what they are. So we talk about diversity and we talk about inclusion, but mostly as social or political goals. Are there actual business or organizational benefits to diversity?
Dr. Tammi Gray:
There are, but I will say anecdotally and from a research standpoint, even recent research articles that were released last year in 2022, organizations are not approaching it, many organizations, the right way. Meaning, the focus is not on the employee’s needs. So you have 2020, there was a huge influx of, “Let’s all implement…” Companies decided, “Let’s implement diversity, equity, inclusion.” And they added belonging. So B at the end.
Tammi Mac:
What is belonging?
Dr. Tammi Gray:
So I’m going to break it down for you. So diversity-
Tammi Mac:
We are learning today. Class is in session.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
Diversity somehow morphed into, from organizations, a viewpoint that it was about skin color. That’s a fraction of it, your ethnicity and race. But you have ideology, you have culture, you have symbols, you have rituals. It’s a full makeup that makes diversity. And that’s really not factored in. Organizations, for the D part, they decide, “Oh, we’re going to do training and development and we’re going to make you feel better,” and that doesn’t help. On the equity piece, if you notice, you hear a lot of DI, they cut out the equity piece. And the equity piece gives you access, means fair access. Everyone has access to the same information, same resources, same tools, and they can create environments employees can, if an organization allows them, that provides equitable practices and access.
Then you have inclusion. Well, you can’t have inclusion, everyone can’t feel like they’re a part of if they don’t have the diversity and the equity piece. And then the belonging, how do you feel like you belong if you’re uncomfortable in a place, if you feel as if someone is doing certain processes and concepts and implementations?
Tammi Mac:
Or somebody want to touch my hair.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
Exactly. Right. The microaggression, right? That’s the, “Oh, let me see. Are you different?” This does not make individuals feel comfortable. We’re human first. We’re not just employees. And so I was reading a recent study, a Harvard Business Review in Education. It was a study that was released earlier this year, and it’s titled Why is DE&I Programs Failing? Well, they surveyed 122 employees across several companies, and they stated that their needs are not being met. They’re not being heard. They feel undervalued. And companies are spending a lot of money to give titles to certain individuals. But they’re not giving them the authority with the responsibility.
Tammi Mac:
Yeah. They’re checking a box.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
Yes.
Tammi Mac:
Got that. Got that.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
Yes.
Tammi Mac:
No, no, no, no, no. We don’t want to hear what you have to say. We’re good.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
Right, exactly. And the other part is they don’t want to have the crucial conversations, which are difficult conversations.
Tammi Mac:
Especially in the workplace though. Aren’t those conversations difficult to have in the workplace?
Dr. Tammi Gray:
They’re very difficult.
Tammi Mac:
Should we be having them in the workplace?
Dr. Tammi Gray:
And I don’t think necessarily there, because for one, it’s very sensitive, it’s very emotional for a lot of us in the black community, many have felt that, based on research, and then some of their pharmacological experiences that we are supposed to make the white leaders or white individuals feel okay about the disparaging treatments that we’ve received, the marginalized and under-representation, and that doesn’t feel good. So I don’t think that it’s going to create a healthy workplace. But I do think there needs to be a forum to have those conversations, but also action that’s applied and not just checking a box, as you said earlier.
Tammi Mac:
Well, it’s interesting you say that these conversations are hard to have. And sometimes the people who are included in these DEI positions, they aren’t heard. Because one person who we recently found out was a part of a huge network organization, Donald Glover, better known as Childish Gambino, the rapper, but Donald Glover, the writer, director, producer of Swarm and Atlanta. He found out that he was a diversity hire at NBC or one of those networks, and said that they weren’t listening to anything he said. He didn’t feel like he was included. It’s interesting that it’s called diversity, equity, and inclusion, and he stated that he didn’t feel like he was included in that table where the writers were. So it’s not just happening to regular, ordinary, everyday people. It’s also happening to minority celebrities who we think have it so good, and they don’t. So what are some of the main challenges that black and African American business and organizational leaders face, particularly when working in an environment that is predominantly white?
Dr. Tammi Gray:
Well, I’m glad you asked that because I do want to touch on the emotional tax. Sometimes we don’t think about what’s levied on us as black leaders and even black employees, if you’re not leading, or even if you’re leading informally, well, we got to talk about that too. But the emotional tax, think about this heavy burden of misrepresentation and unrealistic expectations that are placed on us. We’re supposed to come and just smile. We’re supposed to code switch, have a certain tone and tenor, walk a certain way, wear our hair a certain way, not talk about things that bother us, not talk about things as part of our culture and heritage. Think about how emotionally taxing that is for us. For one, if we are in a position to lead others, means we are influencers, how can we influence in a positive way, in a healthy way if our teams who we’re leading, they see us under duress and stress?
Some of the things that we face as far as challenges is being seen and not heard. I experience that in my career. I want to share that in the tech industry, a Midwestern company, will not name any names, and this tech environment was different than what I’d experienced. I’ve always, for the most part worked for global tech companies, which makes a difference. You have people of color, they may be from Middle Eastern, Asia or somewhere, and they may not necessarily all be black, but you have some other minority groups there. This particular executive leader asked me to not put my credentials, meaning the PhD, behind my name on my business card. And also asked me to not ask questions when I attend meetings. Was new to the organization. And you’re trained early on, you ask questions, you don’t go to a training or an orientation. And I was told to be quiet, be seen, and not heard.
And I was given that message within my first two weeks, two consecutive weeks in a row. I was uncomfortable. It was emotionally taxing because they had flown me out for several interviews. Different state, pulled out the red carpet, which I’m kind of used to it at this level, but not used to being mistreated. So I didn’t know how to be Tammi. I didn’t know how to be Tammi at work. I didn’t know how to lead, I didn’t know how to speak because I started suppressing myself. And then I realized I couldn’t conform to it. So parted ways, needless to say. But that’s just one example.
And how many of the listeners might be dealing with that and have dealt with it? So it breaks your sleep pattern. You’re thinking subconsciously about work.
Tammi Mac:
So it begins to mess with your mental state of mind.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
Yes, it does.
Tammi Mac:
Your mental wellness.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
It does. It really does.
Tammi Mac:
This is where we are, yes.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
And a rising comes in. You can find yourself with some anxiety, just being anxious. I found myself saying to the Lord, because I’m a person of faith, “Father, just calm me down. Let today go well. Let me not do something wrong.” And we’re talking in your hundreds of thousands for… So you’re thinking, “I’m getting treated this way?” That’s what I started saying to myself.
Tammi Mac:
When I worked for a radio station, I remember the general manager encouraging us, and it was a hip hop station, so obviously most of the people who worked there were black, and I remember the white general manager encouraging us to vote Republican, almost demanding that we vote Republican. Now, not that I’m saying I’m Republican or Democratic, but the fact that you are pushing me in a certain direction and you are my supervisor, this is not a good look in the workplace.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
Right. And it’s not right.
Tammi Mac:
Yeah, it’s crazy. So let’s talk about, since you shared your experience and I shared mine, let’s talk about black women. Black women, well, we seem to face greater degree of, I don’t know, challenges when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion in the workplace. I don’t know why that is. Why is it?
Dr. Tammi Gray:
That is a good question, and I don’t have a direct answer, but I can tell you I experience some things every day. Sometimes it could be-
Tammi Mac:
The fact that you said they told you not to put PhD behind your name is ludicrous.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
Yeah, to play the underdog [inaudible 00:19:11].
Tammi Mac:
It is crazy. It’s like, “Shut up little black girl.”
Dr. Tammi Gray:
Exactly.
Tammi Mac:
And that’s sort of reminiscent of slavery, dare I bring that up?
Dr. Tammi Gray:
Right, right. Well, I’ll tell you, as a black leader and a black woman and working in this tech field predominantly, sometimes the other gender, men from other cultures will speak to me as if I’m not there. Example-
Tammi Mac:
So many women say that.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
… I disseminate information. They’ve asked me a question. There was something recently I was explaining about the environment, what the engineer was going to do, the engine, the calculation, so on and so forth. And that individual who’s a male, different culture, spoke to another male while looking at me, but told that male what he wanted. So it was to not give me the respect. And this happens every time we have a meeting, every time I’ll say his name and tell him what we’re doing, and then he will look to, let’s say John Doe in the room and tell John Doe what he wants, as if he’s not supposed to respond to me.
So that is for one, very disrespectful. But I continue to go on. And I’ve just said, “You know what? This is the way that it is. I’m not going to make waves.” But do I feel good about it? No. Does it bother me? Yes. Would I like for maybe someone to step in and say the white male who he’s talking to, and that’s really what it looks like, someone to say, “Well, Tammi’s disseminating that information to you.”
Tammi Mac:
You should talk to her.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
Right. Yes.
Tammi Mac:
Look at her. Converse with her.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
Right, I think culturally that happens depending on the region that they’re from, so I’m not going to name regions, but I experience that a lot in this industry.
Tammi Mac:
When you say culturally though, Dr. Gray, you don’t mean just white men?
Dr. Tammi Gray:
No.
Tammi Mac:
You mean men?
Dr. Tammi Gray:
I mean men-
Tammi Mac:
Of all ethnicities.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
… of all ethnicities.
Tammi Mac:
Of all cultures, all races.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
Right, where maybe the woman should not say as much or the woman shouldn’t be given that respect as if they’re leading, even though they’re in a leading position. But again, here it comes with not having any authority.
Tammi Mac:
Right. So how do you become successful in an environment like that? You clearly are, so help us out because we ain’t.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
I focus on those who I’m leading directly because I have a direct influence with those individuals. I meet with my team members often. I give them a space where they can have psychological safety, and that’s very important. That means they can speak freely. They can tell me if they need me to do more of, less than, if I haven’t supported them. But this has taken time, so I create that type of atmosphere. I also do quite a bit of coaching with my direct reports because I believe, Tammi, if I can influence them, I can’t focus on the other things I can’t influence, I have to try and bring others along.
Whenever I have moved on to greener pasture, so to speak, in my career, if I’ve left a company and I have maintained my relationships with individuals who reported to me, I’ve maintained relationships for individuals who work alongside me. And some of the things that they’ve said and written, even out on my profile on LinkedIn, that I always put my team first. I serve them. I don’t get caught up in titles. So with that being said, my reputation precedes me. The individuals who are reporting to me directly will do anything, and I don’t have to ask because we just have this bond, but they see how I lead.
Now as far as other individuals, if someone is just blatantly disrespectful or just ignoring me or it is my time to be representative of or speak to something, then I will raise that to their awareness. And sometimes it gets a little uncomfortable, but not contentious. But if I cannot control some of the things which are people, I just try to control myself. For your listeners, I do want to say, I know some may be saying, “Oh, that’s easier said than done,” and it’s not. It’s-
Tammi Mac:
Because you’re not saying it’s easy at all.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
No, I’m working through it day by day because I encounter things, even in higher education. I have students on the flip side, they’ll go to the dean and they’ll say, “Dr. Gray is too hard.” These are graduate students. They’re getting masters. But they will say, some have said, “She wants us to do work at the level of a PhD.” Well, hence, maybe I want to prepare you for the future. I do challenge them. I don’t just teach from the textbook. I bring my practitioner experience. I bring exercises. It’s engaging. “Oh, when I’m in a six-hour lecture, Dr. Gray is not just lecturing. Dr. Gray is teaching, but you’re engaged. You’re going to lead.” And so sometimes that makes them feel uncomfortable for those who don’t want to stretch and extend their burgeon. So then they go and complain.
So I deal with it in both worlds, but what I continue to do is say to myself, sometimes when it gets really hard, “Do the best you can do. Be the best you can be.” Because that’s my ministry. I believe everywhere that I am where God has allowed me to be a vessel, I’m making a difference, even if it’s with one person. And then I’m doing the work outside of those environments so it doesn’t tear me down. Volunteering.
Tammi Mac:
You have an [inaudible 00:24:40] of excellence.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
Right. Volunteering and mentoring, and just trying to really bring others along, so I know I’m doing the work and I’m paying it forward, but I can’t worry about what those other folks aren’t doing.
Tammi Mac:
So we want some help from you. So share a little bit with us, what lessons have you learned that you’re willing to teach us, so we don’t have to learn it?
Dr. Tammi Gray:
For one, to be yourself. I’m going to put emphasis on that. There was a time where I was embarrassed of where I grew up. I wanted to leave all that behind me, and when I started working in Irvine and in corporate America, I wanted to fit in. I wasn’t myself. I didn’t start being my true self until maybe my mid 30s. And it took my son to tell me, “Until you learn to love you and you accept me for who I am, you’re going to always be unhappy.”
Tammi Mac:
That seems to always affect our mental wellness, to not know exactly who we are. And I hear a lot of people saying, “Well, who are you?” Or, “I’m trying to learn myself.” I don’t think I know what that means. What does that mean? Know who you are because you are different at different chapters of your life.
Dr. Tammi Gray:
You are, but when we’re trying to people please, at least that was my experience, I wasn’t speaking how I meant it. I wasn’t myself. I subconsciously and consciously always focused on what are they thinking and how do I fit in? That was one lesson. And I’m very comfortable in my skin because what I had to do the work to get there. It didn’t just come overnight. It wasn’t just a talking to that my teenage son had with me at that time, it was doing the work. The other lesson that I’ve learned is waiting my turn. Doing the work while waiting my turn. I am a firm believer, and I’m proof of it, that if you do the work and you walk in your gifting, what you’re called to do, we are all called to do something, I never focused on how big or small it was in other people’s eyes. I always wanted to do my best.
And doing my best and waiting my turn, meaning I was getting prepared for whatever it was the future had. I don’t have to call and beckon to anything. It comes to me, but that’s because in preparation, and I was patient. Last lesson that I think is a big one, don’t look into the horizons. It can be daunting. An executive leader shared that with me at the beginning of my doctoral journey, and that’s been over 15 years ago because I was so anxious about getting there. And she said, “Slow down. Really enjoy the journey.” And when life started happening, parents got sick, and I had to take breaks from school, and I was caring for my father, and I cared for my mother, and then they passed on and life just kept happening to where God just slowed me down, and I started pacing myself.
And no matter how long it took in other people’s eyes for me to finish, let’s say the doctorate degree, because all I would hear is win, win, win, right? But it was so much greater later. It was so much greater.
Tammi Mac:
Ah, that’s beautiful. That’s beautiful. Well, Dr. Gray, thank you for taking us on your journey. We certainly appreciate it. And thank you for preparing us with your lessons that you’ve learned. So now we know, we hope you learned a few things about your mental health and wellness. And if you want to find out more, you can do that, just visit our website. We’ll provide those links in a bit. We’ll have some resources as well as more information about our guest. But more importantly, we hope you will come back and join us for our next program. And remember, we wish you well on your journey to good health and satisfying lives, that is because You Are Not Alone.
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