Below is a full transcript of the podcast.
Dr. Kelly Torres 00:01
This episode of EdTech Hour is brought to you by the Educational Psychology and Technology Program at The Chicago School of Professional Psychology. The Chicago School’s mission is integrating the values of education, innovation, service, and community. The Chicago School provides students innovative and practitioner-based learning experiences in which they’re able to positively impact others around the world and address issues faced by underserved populations. Through collaboration, university administration, faculty, and students. The EdTech Hour was created in order to pursue our vision of innovation and global outreach.
This monthly podcast series will include thought leaders from around the world who will discuss relevant issues centered not only on technology, but also the impact of technology on humanity. Speakers will provide listeners with stories of how they have impacted learners, employees, and communities through their pursuit of understanding how individuals learn and use technology to improve performance. This show provides a global median to share and promote various issues and developments and learning and how professionals are utilizing technology. By listening to this show, I hope that you’re able to develop a unique insight into how you can incorporate similar topics and trends into your own professional settings. I look forward to learning more about our topic with you throughout this episode.
Bethany Patterson 01:18
Hi, my name is Bethany Patterson. I am a third-year doctoral student within the Educational Psychology and Technology Department within The Chicago School of Professional Psychology. And today, I will be interviewing Tiffany Michels. Tiffany is a board-certified behavior analyst. She is also an international behavior analyst. She owns an Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA) company within North Carolina and Virginia. She’s also a mother to a one-year-old and a doctoral student herself. So Tiffany, how do you manage all of that? Let’s talk about what ABA is. I, I’m sure a lot of people don’t really truly understand what ABA is or don’t have the background. But it is psychology, and that is also why we are interviewing you with this. So what is ABA?
Tiffany Michels 02:16
Yeah, so ABA is a scientific research-based practice. It focuses on the science of behavior. There’s a wide range of domains that, you know, professionals in my field focus on just some examples would be communication and language skills, adaptive skills. We do some fine motor gross motor skills related to the DSM five criteria for autism. So ABA is very wide ranging, my company focuses mostly on the autism spectrum diagnosis and those individuals that are affected by that go by the DSM five criteria for that.
Bethany Patterson 02:56
So it’s very specific. It sounds like what brought you to ABA? I feel like not a lot of people come into it, knowing about it. It’s somehow they learned about it. So how what brought you to ABA?
Tiffany Michels 03:11
Yeah, so I actually had no idea what it was. Until so you’re right, you kind of stumbled upon it. So I was working as a TA in a special education setting. I was in a more restrictive classroom with IDD, ASD and EDD children, and it was the first time I’ve ever worked with that population, to even get into the classroom. I have an aunt and cousin who work with a special needs population. So I kind of just decided I wanted to try and see how that would work.
As I was going through my master’s, or I’m sorry, my bachelor’s program at the time, I was actually going for Gen Ed. But I kind of wanted to just, you know, I like to challenge myself and I wanted to get experience. So I tried special education, just to see, you know, what is it all about. So I got a job with a local organization that works through the school system with at risk youth. I worked in an elementary school, and there was a BCBA there one day, and which I, at the time, didn’t know what he was. Basically, I didn’t know who he was just kind of came in. He started working with a kid that I was assigned to, and he was assessing that child following a behavior intervention plan that the child had at the time. So I was kind of told to just hang back. So I did observe the kid and what that individual was doing with the child. And I kind of asked him a little bit of questions while he was doing it, because I was interested in, you know, seeing him kind of doing some of the assessing, taking some of the data. I was interested in, you know, what was he, what data was he taking and things, and then he told me what he was, which is the BCBA.
He told me what he, what he does, and what that is, and I kind of was like okay, well that’s really interesting. It’s a study, you know, a behavior, and, you know, he kind of went into a little bit of detail about what you know, ABA is and what to be CBA does. So I went home that night, and researched it, researched what a BCBA was, what ABA was, like what could I do? And I completely changed my entire career path after that, and educational path after that. So contacted my advisor that week, and by the end of the week, I was doing a different, doing a different degree. And, and then from there, I just got into got into the field. So I stopped working as a TA and started working in the ABA field at the end of that school year, because I wanted to kind of get more experience with the actual, you know, ABA side of things rather than the special education school side of things. And so I went for it.
Bethany Patterson 05:29
So you ended up doing the master’s in education, and then going for the extra coursework.
Tiffany Michels 05:54
Yeah, so I got a master’s in special education. I have a bachelor’s in psychology. And then I got a master’s in special education, actually two bachelors, but the other one is in this interdisciplinary, so it’s kind of a hodgepodge of teaching courses for me. And then I got a master’s in special education, and then I did that core sequence.
Bethany Patterson 06:15
And now you’re going for a doctorate, correct?
Tiffany Michels 06:19
I am, I’m going for my doctorate in education. I decided to do education because of the current climate with the needs. In my area where I’m at now, I actually had some heartstrings pulled on me with a couple kiddos that we service that really, really need, like reading and literacy skills. And so I decided to do a specialization in reading and literacy within my doctoral program. So I’m doing that at Walden university right now, and I have plans to hopefully open up a special education school in North Carolina, which is very, very needed.
Bethany Patterson 06:55
So needed. So going into your businesses, why did you form Helianthus? And maybe you can also explain why you chose the name Helianthus. Very unique. It’s very sentimental, too, correct?
Tiffany Michels 07:10
Yeah, I always knew I wanted to own and operate an ABA company. It’s really, really scary to take that step. But I always knew I wanted to, from pretty much day one of me getting into field, I was like, this is what I want to do, you know, with the rest of my life, and you know, just kind of seeing other people and their businesses, I was like, you know, I really want to do this. Felt compelled to since I started. I’ve been in the field for over eight years now, practicing in Virginia for most of that time until opening up this business, and now we’re in North Carolina as well. We are in both states, as you mentioned.
So I formed HPVS, specifically, at the time that I did, it was through COVID. Did it March of 2020. So it was kind of like right around when COVID first hit. I also was pregnant at the time. So what really happened was to kind of just like, get me going with the fear side of starting a business. My husband actually, I told him that I wanted to do it. It’s been an on and off battle for me. There’s a lot involved in it, and it’s scary. And because of COVID and me being pregnant, we were kind of on the fence of well. With us being affected by that, do we go, do I go back to work? Do I not go back to work? I was like 30 weeks pregnant. I was like, I don’t know what I want to do. And so he was just like, “Well, you’ve been talking about opening up your own thing. Why don’t you work on that?” And I asked, “Do you think we’re ready for that?” And he said, “Well, when are you going to be ready, if you’re not now, you know?” That’s what I did, and he supported me throughout the whole time. I wasn’t getting an income for months and months and months. And then we’re being supported through his, and I made it happen. And that’s how I came about being ready to open up the company. It was kind of just like, “Hey, here’s your dream, and you need to do it. You want to do it. So do it.”
Bethany Patterson 09:09
Nothing like having that support.
Tiffany Michels 09:11
Yeah, I had a lot of support, which is great. And even from other family and friends, I had support as well. And I think it really helped because once moving to North Carolina, I did a poll just to see, does anybody even know what this is out here? And you know, are you getting these services at all or not? And a lot of people responded that they weren’t getting services because they had to drive one to two hours to receive services, so they weren’t getting any. And then you know, there were a lot of really, really long waitlists as well in our area where there is one company that was established here, and that was it.
So a lot of people right around where I am, they just weren’t getting them or they were driving the one to two hours in of Virginia, further into North Carolina. It was definitely compelling for me to say, “Okay, well, we need something where they don’t have to drive that far.” And they can receive the medically necessary service that their child needs. So, so that’s how I started it.
And then the name Helianthus. It is the scientific name for sunflower. Sunflowers are my favorite flower. They’re bright, happy, they’re very positive and fun. It’s definitely a very fun and positive flower, which is something that I definitely found my company on that philosophy. You always smile, when you see a sunflower. It always brightens your day. At least for me.
Bethany Patterson 10:43
I don’t know anybody that doesn’t see a sunflower and smile.
Tiffany Michels 10:47
So yeah, so it’s definitely very, very … it’s just a happy flower. And I feel like through the toughest days, you just need to think of something happy. And I’ve had a few tough and rough days in my in my life for periods in my life. And I needed to find a contact, something reinforcing. And that’s what was reinforcing for me. It kind of brought me joy, it helped me be positive and encouraged. So that’s just what I wanted my company to be founded on, so that’s why we did sunflower.
Bethany Patterson 11:21
And you talked and touched upon some of the struggles that you dealt with, when coming to North Carolina, and having very little support for a lot of these clients here. What are some struggles that you dealt with, with being a leader in this field in starting this ABA company in an area that really didn’t know much about ABA? And also on top of that now starting a clinic here as well.
Tiffany Michels 11:47
Mm hmm.
Bethany Patterson 11:48
Have you dealt with any struggles within that?
Tiffany Michels 11:52
A lot. Yeah, so that’s a very big question. But, yeah, a lot of struggles. So prior to opening the company, I had a lot of people who put me down and a lot of people who decreased my self-esteem while I was practicing in the field. Because I mean, it is a very tough field to work in. Right? T here’s no denying that. Just with the complexities of everything, the population that we work with, you know, you can get burnt out really easily. It is a stress evoking environment at times, but it’s also very rewarding field. And you have to have a good healthy environment to be in, that is positive.
So, when I started out, I had a lot of people that put me down. I had a lot of people who didn’t believe in me, what I wanted to do, or what I was doing. I kind of sought mentorship in a way to see if I even wanted to really own a business. When I first started, you know, doing my research, there was a lot of “don’t do it,” basically. Or, you know, “if you do it, it’s going be very difficult for you.” And some of that was, maybe the reality of it is difficult, owning a business. But some of it, at least to me, it seemed like it was related to, I wouldn’t be able to do that.
So I obviously beat the odds there. I have a business, and it is doing well. And we are able to service a lot of clients. We have 30 now, so you know, I’m very, very blessed to be able to do that. Another thing that was really difficult with starting the business was COVID. It was tough finding clients. It was tough finding staff. Really, the community that I live in, in North Carolina was really helpful. It’s spread out like people like their privacy. People like to be to themselves, but it’s also a very welcoming community. And I mean, at the drop of a hat, you’re going to find people that are going to raise their hand and help with anybody that’s in need for anything. And so I think that that kind of helps network a little bit and get the word out.
Honestly, social media helped, just like that poll that I did. Because a lot of people were like, “Okay. What’s this? Oh, I know, somebody that might benefit from this. Or my grandson might benefit from this.” So it kind of helped build up a little bit of our clientele. And getting a little feeler out there. Is this something that’s going to be of use to the community? So that helped a lot. And then after getting everything going, I really had to do a lot of marketing and a lot of reaching out and just building connections.
Once I built those connections, those strong connections with people that helped increase the clientele just kept increasing, which helped grow the business. As far as staffing goes, that was tremendously hard. Especially with COVID, because you know, they had all these supports and stuff and people couldn’t work. And so it was very, very difficult finding staff that could work or that would work through COVID. So, I will say even now, that’s still kind of a struggle because of COVID. But I kind of had to navigate that. I did a lot of like marketing, a lot of increasing our marketing budget in order to try to find people, and word of mouth. I just did what I could, plain and simple. It was tough. It was tough. I wouldn’t say there was really a solution there for that one, just because of COVID. I just did what I could. I took clients myself. I had, you know, a caseload of I believe was like eight or 10. And for us, for my company, like that’s around where I don’t want to have my staff go much over. Obviously, depending on the needs of the clients and the staff that you’re supervising. I found my company on a lot of different things. And one of them is quality, client care and then quality staff supervision. So we tend to have lower numbers for those that are BCBAs doing cases because of those reasons. I did have slightly higher side of what I wanted for a caseload for myself and for some of the other staff, but I started out with me and one other person. And then I just kind of worked my way up from there. And I don’t know. I think maybe I’m religious. I think maybe God just helped out a little bit with all that.
Bethany Patterson 16:40
Now, how big is your company?
Tiffany Michels 16:42
We have 20 staff. I went from, like I said, myself and one other. And that was it as of the very end June of 2020. So from March to June, it was kind of that. March was when the business was established, I had a name, but I was, you know, still pregnant, too. I was still I was working on everything.
Bethany Patterson 17:08
Right?
Tiffany Michels 17:09
And then took our first client right at the end of June, with my one staff member. Yeah.
Bethany Patterson 17:18
Wow.
Tiffany Michels 17:18
And now I have 20.
Bethany Patterson 17:20
So you’ve been in business for about a year…or a little over a year, I would say.
Tiffany Michels 17:24
A little bit over a year. And now, we do in home in and community in Virginia. I don’t have a physical location, we do in home. And then in North Carolina, I started out doing in home, and then community. And now we have a clinic, and we do school. So we have contracts with the school districts in North Carolina to be able to do consulting and services within some of the school districts around here, which is pretty big. That’s something that’s hard to work out, especially for us in Virginia. I feel like it’s hard to work out. And then and we’re able to do that in North Carolina, and they’re very welcoming to have us come in and collaborate and support. It’s been pretty awesome. And it really it’s just all for the clients and it benefits the clients.
Bethany Patterson 18:15
Great. And also to ABA right now is a little different in North Carolina. You really work very closely with the psychology licensed psychologist and school psychologist a lot more in North Carolina. Can you speak a little bit on what that is? What that entails? And your thoughts on that?
Tiffany Michels 18:36
Yeah. To be honest with you, we have a North Carolina practice law that we have to follow. So we’re not licensed in North Carolina. We are in Virginia, but we’re not in North Carolina, which does get a little bit dicey.
Sometimes we do have staff that work in both states or they may do telehealth or whatever. But once you have a system, it’s pretty easy to navigate as far as that goes. So we are not licensed in North Carolina right now. We are board certified, that’s national…well, international. We are board certified, and we do have to work under a licensed professional, a licensed psychologist or licensed psychological associate. We do have both on staff, so we do work under them. And they oversee the cases that are in North Carolina. And to be honest with you, I mean, I’m grateful for them. You know, I feel like it’s a good collaboration. I feel like there are some struggles. I think with us trying to navigate, making sure that we’re following that rule, especially because it can be a little bit vague on what is required. But we’ve been researching and the collaboration from those professionals. We’ve I think we have a good system down and you know they definitely bring a lot to the cases, even though and they both have experience within, like the behavioral spectrum of things.
I think that it’s just a matter of picking those that are experienced or that are good professionals that do work with children with autism, or adults with autism, or whatever your company is doing and founded on having those same views and visions and having that experience. I think, you know, then it just kind of runs smoothly. And that’s kind of how it has been for us. And I don’t think I would change that even when we are able to be licensed, which that is coming into play. So we did get the N.C. ABA board … there was announcement that there is approval for us to get a law passed in place for us to get licensed. It’s not passed yet. Or it is passed, I think. But it’s not, there’s no board with that. So we have to have that board established and in place first, and then all the regulations and stuff that we have to follow. It could be a year could be two years. I mean, I don’t know. But I feel like even once it is, I’m going to be happy that we’re licensed. That’s great. Hopefully, that opens up more doors for more kids that will be able to get services, or jobs. Hopefully it will open up more ability for us with funders as well, because we do take insurance, but I still would have a psychologist on staff.
Bethany Patterson 21:38
I mention, yeah, it’s crucial, and as much, you know, we’re both BCBAs, of course, we love ABA, but we’re not the end all and be all. So having that collaboration of, especially since a lot of our clients have comorbidities. It’s not always just autism, there might be anxiety,
Tiffany Michels 22:01
Right?
Bethany Patterson 22:02
Having that different perspective come in and collaborate is so crucial.
Tiffany Michels 22:10
Yeah, you have to, and you have to work within your competency on your scope of practice. And, some of our staff may not have that. And that brings in more assistance for that child. I think either way, it’s definitely a necessary thing to have, because they do bring in a different perspective. And they do bring in assistance in that way. And I also think it’s great for our families. I feel like our families are comfortable as well. Even if the child does see a psychologist, like a private practice psychologist outside of the company, I think just having an extra perspective there that they can ask questions in the moment when our licensed staff are doing their supervision sessions and their progress report meeting. I feel like it’s good. You know, parents can sit in on that and ask questions. So I think that they also like that, too, just to have a little bit extra handling.
Bethany Patterson 23:06
Right, right. So I kind of want to do a little shift. I talked about all of your accomplishments and everything that you have on your plate right now—as a mother, as a doctoral student, business owner, BCBA. How do you juggle being a leader in this field being the business owner and mother and also getting a doctoral degree? How are you managing it all?
Tiffany Michels 23:34
I’ll admit that it’s tough. It’s definitely tough. There are some days that I think about not doing my doctoral degree. I feel like that’s normal for anybody going through their doctoral degree. Yeah, you kind of go, you kind of have phases, where it’s like, wait a minute, what I get myself into, like, maybe I should, maybe I should take a break. Or maybe I should stop doing this. And the next day, you’re like, “Okay, I got this.” You turn in your assignments for the week. And you’re like, “Okay, I’m good now.”
Bethany Patterson 24:05
I’m glad that you’re normalizing that because it is … it’s something we all go through of being like, “Okay, do I really want this? Do I really need this?” You know, are there days you feel defeated? And if so, how do you keep motivating yourself?
Tiffany Michels 24:22
I think a lot of it has to do with my business and just me personally. I think time management is a big thing. I do. I have a lot of support for myself that I’ve kind of worked out myself that just helped me, not just with the doctorial but also with my company. Because owning a business is difficult just in and of itself, and being able to manage everything—especially if you are a smaller business—and you started from nothing and then you’re trying to grow the business.
I mean, you’re have a bunch of hats. I still have hats but I’ve definitely been fortunate enough to be able to start delegating things, and I have amazing people that I can delegate things to. I think, you know, just having some type of system that kind of helps you organize everything. For me, I do alarms. I do a lot of alarms to remind me of stuff, visual support planners. I do this weird thing with my email where if I get an email, I’ll check it, but then I unread it. Then I can go back to it to remind me that I need to do it. Or something used to trigger me like, “Hey, I have to do something with this person that sent me this email.” So I do that. You know, you got to find stuff.
And then as far as the motivation goes: I feel like the business wouldn’t be here if I weren’t motivated to have a business, you know. That’s first and foremost. And second: It’s not going to be here if I’m not devoted to my company and devoted to the clients. I think that that’s motivated me. I want to help others. Not just the clients, but the staff as well, providing jobs, providing mentorship, providing supervision. I just see a need here, I’ve always been a helper, I’ve always been in a field that’s helped others. And I think that that’s just a big motivator for me. And it just keeps me going. And then my daughter, I want her to see a good successful woman, kind of a role model. You know, like, “Hey, you can do whatever you want to do when you’re older. I don’t care what it is that you want to do, you can do it, but don’t limit yourself.” And so I think that’s been a big thing for me, too. That’s motivated me. And then I have a good support system. My husband’s been really, really supportive. And I think that that’s motivated me too, especially because he’s talked me down a couple times. Where I’ll, I’ll say, “Hey. I don’t know. This is getting a little too much. How am I going do this this week?” And he says, “You got it. You got a baby. You can do it.” You know? So that’s helped out a lot as well.
Bethany Patterson 27:04
You’re right with that. How do you also promote self-care? You are doing so much. How do you ensure that your needs are met, and you’re promoting self-care? Not only for yourself, but also how … so a two-part question: For yourself, but also for your staff as well. How do you ensure that they’re not getting burnt out? The psychology field can be a field that you can get burnt out so easily. How do you promote self-care for your staff, too?
Tiffany Michels 27:36
Mm hmm. So really, I think motivating it for myself is simple. It’s simple. You got to give yourself grace and know that you can’t do everything in a day. And you have to just give your best self and you need time to recharge. So you know, you can’t give your best if you’re not taking care of yourself. You can’t take care of others if you’re not taking care of yourself. I think a lot of it was me needing to learn that I have to give that to myself in order for me to be able to help others. And I will say it took time. I mean, before I even opened my business. I’m kind of a workaholic, but even during me opening my business and stuff, it was a lot of reminders. And it was a lot of not doing that, because I didn’t know how at the time. And it’s just kind of been more learned for me now. And I practice that also because I preach that to my staff. So it’s very, very important. Being a clinician and having worked in the field—and I still do work in the field—I know what it’s like to be burnt out. I know what it’s like to work 45 hours a week direct with a client where every you’re on that whole time.
Bethany Patterson 28:50
Right.
Tiffany Michels 28:50
I also know what it’s like to be a business owner and working 80 hours a week. So you kind of have to have those strategies, and you have to promote self-care to others. Because they may need to kind of learn themselves. What are the strategies that will work best for me? And just hearing that it’s okay to do that. You know what I mean. For me, I didn’t hear that. When I was a clinician and I was working directly with it. I didn’t hear that you need to practice self-care. Not once did I hear that in the entire eight years of my career that I was working. I didn’t hear it once. I heard it after I started owning my own business. And I was having mentors that were helping me with my business. And they were the ones that were saying, “You got to give yourself some time. You got to give yourself some grace. You’re not going to be able to do this forever if you’re continuing to do that. You know what you’re doing now.” So that just was eye opening for me. And again, we’re focusing on quality services for clients. And if you are not taking care of yourself, you’re not going to be able to provide those quality service for others. It’s not going to be a positive environment; you’re always going to be stressed out. So you just have to have supports in place and find out what works best for you. And I really think hearing that from somebody, you know, telling them, “Hey, it’s okay. It’s okay to practice self-care. It’s okay to take a day if you need a mental health day sometimes.” You know?
Bethany Patterson 30:23
And normal. That is so important.
Tiffany Michels 30:26
Yeah. And so I preach that to my staff, you know. I mean, you have to be able to do that. And, and I do think that sometimes they’re kind of like, “Oh, but I’m fine.” And I’m like, “Okay, but are you sure? How are you feeling? Let’s do a rating scale here.” And also within my company, we do have certain assessments and things that we do to factor and get data to help assess where staff are at and how they’re feeling. And if they reach a certain point of the assessment that poses any alarm, then me and the clinical director will assess that and then determine what we need to do. So you know, providing more support, or maybe they don’t need as much support. And they’re stressed, because they have too much support. And they want to have a little bit of freedom with how they’re doing things—still having the oversight if they’re supposed to have the oversight, depending on their credential. But there’s a lot of factors involved. But I think assessments, as far as a business owner goes, helps as well—especially when you’re growing because you’re not going to be able to touch base with every single staff every day. It’s very difficult. So having a rating scale go out, or a survey or an assessment or whatever going out to be able to determine overall, where’s the whole company? And where’s the individual staff? So I think that that definitely is a good strategy to have as business.
Bethany Patterson 31:50
Yeah, no, definitely. I want to definitely talk … go back to dealing with negativity, I should say, within the field. And I feel like this not only happens in the EBA community, but in psychology field in general. There can be a lot of negativity. How do you combat this?
Tiffany Michels 32:14
So yeah, I agree with you. Again, like I said, prior to opening my business there were a lot of setbacks. As I was even just growing in the field, there was a lot of, “You’re not ready for that” even though I thought I was, from my supervisors and stuff. They knew the field better than I did at the time. I might not have been ready, but I didn’t even have an opportunity to show whether I was or not.
And then there were lot of challenges with me seeing my self-worth. I think some of that was me being told I wasn’t good enough—not really having that equality there, within a company. And I think some of it is just, you have to do your research. I think you really need to find a company that aligns with your values. I think you need to make sure you’re in a positive culture and a positive environment. And realizing that not everybody else is correct in what they say to you, you know. If someone is—and this is just as important in any field—if someone’s putting you down or telling you that you’re not good enough for something, and you’re able to do it, you shouldn’t listen to them. You know what I mean? You should stick up for yourself. I definitely think that’s something that I didn’t do. I didn’t speak up and say, “No. I’d like to try this. I think I can do it. Can you watch me?” Because I supervise. I do think that there are staff that really, really are eager. And they really want to do stuff, but they’re not ready. But I’m not going to not give them any opportunity. Let’s kind of do some shaping, where we’re kind of going little by little. Let’s do this together.
And then let’s set you off a little bit more on your own. I feel like if a staff member wants more opportunities for something, why are we going to shut them down? All you’re going to do is decrease their confidence level, and you are going to put them down. And I think I saw a quote the other day on Indeed. I don’t remember exactly what it said. But it said something about even the littlest effort and if they’re giving effort, you should reinforce that. And I think that that’s very, very important. Especially because if you don’t, they’re not going to see the good that they’re doing and the progress that they’re making. And they’re not going to have any self-reinforcement either. So I don’t know if that answered your question.
Bethany Patterson 34:49
Yeah. I was just thinking to like that kind of goes with the principles of ABA. Correct. Like, if we’re not reinforcing the behaviors we want to see then it’s not going to … We’re just going to squash that motivation. And we’re going to squash that trying.
Tiffany Michels 35:08
And you’re going to find, I’ve encountered … I mean, there was a time where I was. This was way before I started business. But there was a time where I was wondering if I even wanted to continue in the field, because of how I was being treated. And I was just like, there were things that I was encountering and seeing that I was like, “What is going on here? I can’t even believe that this is happening to me. I can’t even believe that it’s something that would even be allowed in the workplace.” Which it really wasn’t. But at the time, I was like, I don’t know. Not to get into details or anything. I’ve just I’ve seen a lot on the staffing side, and I’ve seen a lot on the client side. I think for me, learning from those things now knowing because at the time I was a BT when they had BTS. There wasn’t an RVT.
And I was just starting out. I didn’t know how things were supposed to be done. I didn’t know that there was a right way and a wrong way to do certain procedures or implementation of certain ABA strategies. I was trusting of what I was being taught. And then after more and more experience and doing professional development, which is a big thing, especially because the science-based field and things change in science all the time. And so I think just be doing my research and learning as a professional, I’ve come to realize that there are definitely different ways of doing things. And there is a right way, and there is a wrong way. And you have to be mindful of that.
I think that that’s really helped me grow as a professional. And it’s helped me with my business. And it’s helped me create a better ABA, essentially, within my company, and a better a better way of life and philosophy within my company for staff to work here. And nobody’s perfect. I’m not perfect. My company is not perfect. I’m still learning myself, I’m still learning how to manage, I’m still learning how to do things, and I’m probably going to be learning forever, no matter how much time I’ve been doing it or not. But I think that’s also another thing too. When I was talking about giving yourself grace and realizing that everything evolves, you have to kind of learn and I think that I’m always going to be learning. I think it’s just going to continue to get better. Because I’m learning and because I’m growing. And I have no problem admitting that I still have to learn and I’ll always be learning.
Bethany Patterson 37:39
And I think this also is a testament to how important supervision is, too.
Tiffany Michels 37:45
Yes, yep, yep. And it is very important. I will say from experience for myself, that it is very, very important. Because what I was touching on. You have to find really good quality supervision with any medical practice. You have to know what’s right and what’s not right. And you have to know that you’re getting quality supervision and when you’re not. And it is difficult to recognize when you’re new to the field, and you’ve never done it before. And that’s how I started. I had never done it. I didn’t know anybody that did it. I researched it myself, and then started doing it after just hearing. Like I said about that teacher. He was a specialist, actually a specialist that also was BCBA. And I literally like saw him one time and was like, “Hey, what are you doing?” Like I said earlier, it’s not like I was able to have a sit down conversation with him and discuss anything with him. But I would encourage.
You live and you learn. And as time went on, I did do more research. I did sit down with people. I did talk with people, and I would say, “I wish I would have done it sooner.” I wish I would have tried a little bit more to find people to talk to during my first year in the field so that I could get more information about best practices and being supervised and how that looks. Because I would have a lot of stuff that I learned through doing myself. And I learned through working like with the clients directly myself. And so I just think it’s really important to do your research and find a good quality supervisor, asking a lot of the right questions. How long have you been in the field? What’s your experience? How many people have you supervised? What is your philosophy within ABA? Because everybody kind of has a different one. We have what the field is about and all, but everybody still has … I mean, I see it even today. People still have a different view of how certain strategies or procedures and things are supposed to be done with ABA. Just doing your research and asking those right questions, I think would help out a lot.
Bethany Patterson 40:01
What are some other things that you would tell staff? Or tell those that want to go into psychology or ABA? What are some things that you feel like you’ve learned that you would like them to know before entering into the field?
Tiffany Michels 40:22
I would say that, again, to do your research. I would say it’s a very rewarding field. I’d say, you need to be mindful that it’s not easy. And you’re going have to put in work. Everybody that’s in this field, or in the psychology field, I mean, they work for their licenses, they work for their credentials. It’s a long process, and it does take time. Take it step by step, little by little. And then I think you just need to network. I think you need to network, you need to find the right people. I think you need to—again, I keep saying this—but do your research to find what works best for you to learn and who would be best to learn from. And same thing with picking a program. Do your research there. Not every program is the same. And how they do things are not the same. I mean, even though there’s of course sequences for a BCBA, BCA, or BA, it’s still different per school and how they’re set up for school. And then you also really need to look at, is it accredited? And is the program actually going to be approved by the board for you to get your certifications? Because I feel like now I see people that are putting up courses that are not—which I don’t even know how they’re doing that or how that’s allowed—but I feel like somehow they are. And you just want to make sure that you’re making the right decisions and picking the right paths. And I also think you need to do your research on what part of ABA do you want to do. For me, it was always before I started ABA and before I did the teaching, I was I was working in childcare. And so I always knew that I wanted to do youth, children, young children, and then adolescence up to about four. For me, my competency is really up to about age 13-ish. And so I always knew that that’s what I wanted to do just because of where my passion was. I wanted to get in something where I was actually working with those kids hands on and making a difference in their life. And there are other forms or other categories within the ABA field that you can do OBM. I mean, for me, I’m not I’m interested in it as a business owner, but I wasn’t interested in it before that I will say no way.
Bethany Patterson 42:55
And I think it’s important to say too is that you might go into it one way and then your interests change,
Tiffany Michels 43:03
Correct. That’s exactly what happened. And I’m interested in it. I’m not ashamed to admit this, but I’m interested in it. Because I’m a business owner, I wouldn’t be otherwise. Because for me, that’s where my passion is. I want to actually work with the kids and make a difference in their lives. And now that I’m a business owner, I’m wanting to make a difference in my staff’s life. I’m wanting them to succeed. I’m wanting to see them succeed. And from for me that’s reinforcing. And so I have to do OBM within my practice and to see change with my staff and see success with the business and growth of the business. But there’s a lot of different things that you can do within the ABA field. I mean, there’s people that work in corrections, or business and data analytics. And they factor in ABA with that, kind of OBM I guess. And they also do forensics, the criminal side of things. I’m not fully familiar with all of it because where I’m at in my competency is more ASD and related disorders and disabilities. But there’s just a ton of stuff. Even animal behavior! I will say at one point I was interested in that. I’m still interested in it but not something where I want to make a career out of it. But it’s okay to dabble into a couple different things.
Bethany Patterson 44:40
As long as you’re getting supervised by somebody that…
Tiffany Michels 44:43
…Yes that has that competency. And I think it’s good too, actually to be honest. Like I did when I was doing conferencing and professional development stuff when I was BCBA. I went into a couple different areas for conferences just to see what they were like. Like, hey, like maybe this would be something I’d be interested in going forward. There was a talk about like lab work and stuff. And then I did an animal behavior one. I also did psychology within the mind, but it also related to ABA. And so I just dabbled in a couple … I think dabbling into a few different professional development credits, and kind of dabbling into a couple different areas just to see what you’re interested in. I think that is good too. And there’s a lot of professional development, I think, in our field, where you can kind of get a little bit more information about the different things that you can do with an ABA and how they tie in to ABA. Because there’s different methodologies and different strategies that you can use now with like acting. There’s other stuff that kind of tie into ABA, and just getting kind of some information about that, and how that can turn into like a career path for somebody. I think doing professional development is really important.
Bethany Patterson 45:57
Yeah. And so do you have any mentors in the field or any people that you look up to?
Tiffany Michels 46:05
Yeah, I think so. There’s a few. But I would say the bigger one for me would really be Becca Tag. And I feel like that because she’s awesome. I think she does a lot of work with just mentorship and helping out with within the business side of things for others. And so she’s actually done some things for me., I’ve messaged her, and she’s been there to reply and answer questions and help as much as she can. So I just think her guidance, and then sometimes I’ve kind of leaned on her to vent about some stuff. And she’s been there. So I would definitely say her and she’s always really positive encouraging. So I think that that’s also very uplifting too.
Bethany Patterson 46:54
And she’s also a business owner in North Carolina.
Tiffany Michels 46:58
She is.
Bethany Patterson 46:58
I feel like she’s … and you as well. I’m always collaborate with other business owners. How do you interact with other leaders in the field? How do you collaborate with other leaders? Or have you done if it’s not?
Tiffany Michels 47:14
Oh, yeah. I definitely think it should be done. And we do, with the practice law, we do that with the licensed professionals that we have. But I definitely feel like it’s important to collaborate with any and all persons that are going to benefit the client. Simple as that. Because everything that we do that we do is for the client. That’s why you should be in this field. That’s why I’m in this field. That’s why I started this business. And so we collaborate with school personnel. We collaborate with medical personnel. I collaborate with other business owners to help my business grow and be successful. I’ll even go like advocacy. We’ve collaborated with advocacy individuals as well, people that can help assist with IP assistance. We work with the local autism societies in both states. And we’ve actually started doing some stuff with medical personnel within where my center is based in Elizabeth City, North Carolina. We’ve done some collaboration with them as well. So we’ve had the local fire department actually come out and do some teachings with the kids about fire safety. I’ve talked with Chief Deputy of police; we’ve had them come out. And we’re hoping to collaborate more with them. Things that are going to benefit the client but also to provide them with supports if they need them. So going out and doing trainings with them related to what we do and how we can support them for their jobs within the community, I think is really important. And so we you know, we want to collaborate that way. We do OT speech collaboration. I mean, it’s kind of endless.
Bethany Patterson 49:06
Sounds like you collaborate with the clients team, but also you collaborate with the community.
Tiffany Michels 49:12
Yes.
Bethany Patterson 49:12
For all of your clients to which is so amazing. But also you collaborate with other ABA companies to help the clients and but also it sounds like to help the ABA field as a whole too,
Tiffany Michels 49:29
Yep, yep. And, you know, I’m really big on referrals. If we can’t take a kid, why are they going to be sitting on our waitlist for six, eight months? Yeah, you know. Looking to see if there is another company that can provide service to the family. Especially because a lot of times in in our field and what we do, the afternoon shift is like really hard to find staffing for or to have availability for. And that’s for a lot of companies. So that’s kind you know, unfortunate. I don’t really know the solution to fix that aside from trying to find another company to help a family that’s in need at that time slot. But we definitely do that. And I do a lot of phone consulting whenever I do get intakes and finding out what their needs are. And if it’s a need that we can’t meet, then I will provide them with resources so that they can get the needs that they have met. I do a lot of collaborating with other ABA companies. And I also have some friends that own ABA companies too, and we collaborate with them as well, kind of bounce things off of each other that way, too.
Bethany Patterson 50:44
This is awesome. I want to thank you so much for your time today to talk to us about the psychology field, the ABA field and being a woman leader within this field, juggling motherhood and doctoral programs, and business owner and being a BCBA. I really appreciate you carving out time for this interview.
Tiffany Michels 51:07
Oh, yeah, of course. I’m glad to be here. I don’t think I’d be able to do all that I can do without the support system that I have and the staff that I have, which are all amazing. We have really great team. So honestly, that makes a huge difference. So thank you for having me.
Bethany Patterson 51:22
Thank you.
Tiffany Michels 51:23
Alrighty.
Dr. Kelly Torres 51:25
Thank you for listening to this edition of that tech hour. I’m Dr. Kelly Torres, the department chair of the educational psychology and Technology Program at The Chicago School of Professional Psychology. This podcast was completed through the support of our dedicated faculty, staff, and students. To learn more about the Educational Psychology Technology Program, or if you’re interested in being on the EdTech Hour podcast, please reach out to me at [email protected].