Podcast Host: Tammi Mac
Guests: Dr. Rolinda Shaw and Dr. Loretta Billoups
Tammi Mac – The 3 time NAACP award winning, Tammi Mac was hand-picked by the legendary Stevie Wonder to host the number one afternoon radio show, “The Tammi Mac Show” from 3-7pm daily on his Los Angeles owned 102.3 KJLH. Tammi Mac is voted best radio personality in Los Angeles by the Los Angeles Times. Her one woman show, Bag Lady has garnered best writer, best producer and best one person show and the spin-off webseries Bag Lady is award winning too. Her radio career has extended to television with her talk show, The Business of Being Black with Tammi Mac on the digital network Fox Soul, daily.
Loretta Billoups, Psy.D. – Dr. Loretta Billoups is both a clinician and relationship coach. She obtained a master’s degree in Forensic Psychology from Argosy University and received her doctorate in Applied Clinical Psychology from The Chicago School of Professional Psychology. Prior to becoming a clinician, Dr. Billoups was employed by the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department as a Custody Assistant and later as a Deputy Sheriff for almost twelve years. Dr. Billoups currently works as the Director of Clinical Training at The Chicago School of Professional Psychology and simultaneously at Del Amo Behavioral Hospital in the Clinical Services Department.
Rolinda Shaw, Psy.D. – Dr. Rolinda Shaw graduated from The Chicago School of Professional Psychology (TCSPP) with both a masters and doctorate in Clinical Forensic Psychology. She is trained in TF-CBT (trauma-focused CBT), Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (DBT), Seeking Safety, and Triple P (Positive Parenting Training). Dr. Shaw has extensive experience working with at risk youth in the foster care system and incarcerated adults with complex trauma. She spent 10 years working in the LA County jail system with individuals diagnosed with severe and chronic mental illness. She sees herself as an advocate of social justice who supports the needs of the whole person through the assessment and understanding of how family dynamics, community influence, genetics and systematic barriers impact mental health. Her research interests center around reducing involvement with the criminal justice system for people of color, especially youth, with mental health issues.
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Full Episode Transcript
Tammi Mac:
Hello there, and welcome to You Are Not Alone, your Guide to Mental Wellness, presented by KJLH LA and it’s a production of the Chicago School of Professional Psychology. I am Tammi Mack. Hello, everybody. Are you ready to get well mentally, because that’s what we are about to do, help you and me get well all up in here, up in here. The Chicago School of Professional Psychology has been training and educating multiculturally competent mental healthcare professionals for nearly 50 years. That’s a long time, which means they’re doing something right and a lot of something right. Our program is committed to educating our community about mental health and wellness and normalizing conversations about our mental health. Our program will explore mental health and wellness issues that impact us, as well as explore ways we can improve our wellness. So every week I will be joined by mental and behavioral health experts who will share their experience and expertise, that’s important, to help us on our journey to good health and satisfying lives.
Today we want to talk about the mental health challenges Black women face and the opportunities we have to help ourselves and each other. This is one of my favorites, I must say. I’m joined today with forensic psychologist, Dr. Rolinda Shaw. Hi, Dr. Shaw.
Dr. Rolinda Shaw:
Hello.
Tammi Mac:
And also clinical psychologist Dr. Loretta Billoups. Dr. Billoups.
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
Hello.
Tammi Mac:
Dr. Shaw graduated from The Chicago School of Professional Psychology with both a master’s and doctorate in clinical forensic psychology. Dr. Shaw has extensive experience working with at-risk youth in the foster care system and incarcerated adults with complex trauma. She spent 10 years working in the LA County jail system with individuals diagnosed with severe and chronic mental illness. Her forensic experience includes providing courts evaluations and safety assessments for inmates eligible for jail based diversion programs and reentry support serves in the community. Dr. Shaw has a passion for working with underserved communities, not only as a clinician, but also as an adjunct professor at the Chicago School of Professional Psychology.
She sees herself as an advocate of social justice, who supports the needs of the whole person through the assessment and understanding of how family dynamics, community influence, genetics and systematic barriers impact mental health. Dr. Shaw, oh man.
Dr. Rolinda Shaw:
Hello, hello.
Tammi Mac:
Hello again, yes. Dr. Loretta Billoups is both a clinician and relationship coach. She obtained a master’s degree in forensic psychology from Argosy University and received her doctorate in applied clinical psychology from the Chicago School of Professional Psychology. Prior to becoming a clinician, Dr. Billoups was employed by the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department as a custody assistant, and later as a deputy sheriff for almost 12 years. Dr. Billoups currently works as the director of clinical training at the Chicago School of Professional Psychology and simultaneously at Del Lamo Behavioral Hospital in the clinical services department. Dr. Billoups welcome.
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
Thank you for having me.
Tammi Mac:
We want to start with Dr. Shaw because I got to know what a forensic psychologist is. I have to know.
Dr. Rolinda Shaw:
Okay. Well, the beauty of a forensic psychologist is it merges the two worlds of law and mental health. So typically when people think of law, they only think of the jail and prison system, but it’s actually anywhere that mental health intersects the court. So that could be in child custody evaluations, that could be in best fit evaluations, or working with children in the foster care system that are removed from the biological family home. It also involves working in the court system with juveniles who are in probation camps and juvenile hall systems, and just anywhere that the court intervenes within the family dynamic, possibly resulting in some type of removal or separation of an individual from their family support system.
Tammi Mac:
Yeah, that’s because I’m thinking when I hear forensic, I think DNA, I think blood, I think everything’s scientific that has to do with fluids in the body.
Dr. Rolinda Shaw:
Absolutely. That’s generally portrayed on television and oftentimes as a professor, I have to break the hearts of many students that we are not going to be like on CSI or Criminal Minds. It’s not just profiling serial killers and figuring out the sometimes very ugly part of human nature, but also finding the programs and the policies that we can develop to change to support the systems that are in place to improve and better the lives of the people in the communities that we serve.
Tammi Mac:
Yeah, we always, always on this show learn within the first 30 seconds, because I know y’all thought it was DNA too when she said forensic. Let’s, Dr. Billoups, talk about a clinician, clinician. What is that?
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
So a clinician or like you stated, I received my degree in applied clinical psychology. I work in individuals who are seriously mental ill, typically in that clinical setting, so your hospitals and things of that nature. And so I work with individuals who may have diagnoses such as depression, anxieties, schizophrenia, and things of that nature, and provide them therapy as well. And then along with other team members, we work together in order to help the individual navigate their mental health.
Tammi Mac:
Okay. And this may be a offbeat question, but I often talk about on my radio show how there are no cures for certain diseases. There are doctors, but there are no cures. There’s no cure for cancer, there’s no cure for AIDS, there’s no cure for herpes, if we’re talking about just simple things. Is there a cure for mental illness, when we’re talking about clinician and clinical diagnoses of mental illness, and the specifics ones that you just brought up? Is this something that you have to deal with for the rest of your life, or is there no end to it?
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
Good question. So some of your illnesses such as schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, there’s no cure for them. But along with medication and therapy, these things can definitely be mitigated. Your things like depression. Again, there’s no cure. However, with medication and therapy, we can also work with the individual to help maybe subside some of these symptoms.
Tammi Mac:
So you can learn to live with it in a productive way.
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
Absolutely. You can learn to manage.
Tammi Mac:
Okay. So let’s start here. What are some of the main mental health issues that Black women deal with Dr. Shaw?
Dr. Rolinda Shaw:
Well, for the most part, I would say depression, anxiety, a lot of post-traumatic stress disorder. And that’s generally resulting from years and generations of basic typical racial discrimination that is observed, that is experienced in the communities, in the home. And then the more serious ones can be the bipolar disorders, the schizophrenia, and even the phobias. The agoraphobia, fear of leaving home, the more severe illness, meaning that there’s more impairment into the individual and the way that they function in the world.
Tammi Mac:
When you say fear of leaving home, you mean home from your parents? Or what does that mean?
Dr. Rolinda Shaw:
No, the actual phobia, the fear that something catastrophic will happen if one actually leaves-
Tammi Mac:
The house.
Dr. Rolinda Shaw:
The safety of their own home.
Tammi Mac:
The comforts of their own home.
Dr. Rolinda Shaw:
Yes, and that’s on the more severe side of the mental illness spectrum. But we are seeing a rise in that specifically due to a lot of issues of dealing with racism and dealing with genderism. Just the different differentials between male and female.
Tammi Mac:
I’m from Houston, Texas, that’s my hometown. And it’s an open carry state. So I’ve not been home, well, I go home often, but I’ve been in Los Angeles for quite some time now, and the gun laws here are much more strict than the gun laws in Texas. And I was in Target at Texas and I just saw a man with a gun on his waist and I was like, “Oh Lord, what they about to do in here?” I just cringed. And I was like, “Where am I? I’m at the wild, wild west.” So I can understand the fear of leaving home when you’re under circumstance. I was like, “I got to get back to the West Coast. I don’t want to see you with the gun.” He wasn’t a police officer, he wasn’t in the military. So we are just walking around with the guns? And so there’s a lot to be fearful of today, in this world, because racism has also resurfaced in a different way.
Dr. Rolinda Shaw:
Absolutely. And I think that you speak very correctly that just moving from not only state to state, but from city to city, zip code to zip code, there’s a very different culture that exists between different ethnicities and cultures and what is socially acceptable. And so we have to learn to navigate not only the bigger Eurocentric views of racism and oppression that have been hundreds of years in the making, but also the more accessible cultural ones that are just within our own communities. Just crossing street signs.
Tammi Mac:
Yeah. I also remember going into the grocery store when I was in Houston and I don’t know, I had a T-shirt on that said something or another. I don’t think it was anything worth reading, but I remember the chef, not the chef, the butcher, the guy behind the meat department, the butcher said, “What kind of shirt is that you got on, because everybody’s walking around here with these different shirts, I need to read it.” And I just threw me for a loop. I was like, “What?” And I had to catch myself, because I’m like, “Who’s reading shirts? And what happens if you read my shirt? What’s next?” So there is this certain paranoia that’s happening for Black people, and I would imagine Black women the most, Dr. Billoups. According to research, Black women are actually more likely to experience intimate partner violence, then White women, and then they have to deal with resulting mental issues such as depression, which you brought up, and suicide. So why is this, are we facing these mental situations? Why us?
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
Why us, That’s a very good question. I like the fact that you brought up the fact that Black women are having issues in terms of intimate partner violence. I was doing research the other day and it indicated that 40% of African American women are susceptible or have been attacked. I want to be very transparent here and share that I too was, I’m at the statistic of that 40%. I was in a relationship with someone who was very abusive, and in the beginning it always starts off as you go through that honeymoon phase and things of that nature. But for us, it wasn’t finances, or lack of communication that started the abuse, it was control. He needed to be in control. And so eventually later on, it did lead to finances, because that became an issue in the household as well, raising two children in this economy. So that is the reason that a lot of people experience intimate, or specifically, African American women experience intimate partner violence.
Tammi Mac:
I too have experienced it in college. So I understand that and I feel what that is. And I also think, look, I’m not the psychologist here, but I feel like Black women are so strong that we want to help the Black man. We don’t want to hurt them. And so when they hurt us, we feel more of a need to be there, to stay there. It’s almost like when Ike Turner told Tina Turner in the movie, What’s Love Got To Do With It, “So everybody leaves me,” and we don’t want to be that one to leave them. We don’t want to be that one to let them down. They’ve been beaten up by the world. So we want to be the one to stay there and stick it out. And we’re tagged, strong Black woman, we’ve got to live by that moniker, that banner. “I’m here, I’m not going anywhere.” And we often don’t think about ourselves, our own mental health. Why is that Dr. Shaw?
Dr. Rolinda Shaw:
Well, honestly, a lot of it is ingrained in ways that we’re not even always consciously aware. Going back to when we’re looking at the way that mental health was developed, mental health treatment and services were at the root developed to treat White women with mental health problems in the traditional heterosexual relationship, marriage of Christianity or Catholicism faith, having children and living in a socioeconomic class of middle to higher end income. And so when that is the cultural norm that is given to us, us being people of color, then when it comes to treating mental health issues within our culture, the way that our symptoms present and the way that we experience them are very different. So they don’t often fit within the model that it was designed. And so unfortunately, as you mentioned, that that stereotypical bravado of the strong Black woman who is independent, is a caregiver, and only needs to be self-reliant, is transformed into this superwoman of unobtainable goals and pressures.
And what we are taught very early is we’re strong, we can handle it. So either you deal with it or you leave. And those are the two options, because it’s so ingrained that we’re strong, we can handle it, when in honesty, it’s cycles of abuse, it’s years of control and very unhealthy emotional patterns that start out gradually and then grow and grow and grow. And then you find yourself in a situation where you no longer have the choice, because it’s been taken away from you. Now I have to be strong and deal with it or retaliate.
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
And I’m glad you brought up the fact that as African American women, our depression in our mental illness doesn’t present as others, because oftentimes it presents as like irritability or an attitude.
Tammi Mac:
That’s another moniker that we received. The angry Black woman.
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
Correct.
Dr. Rolinda Shaw:
Correct.
Tammi Mac:
That comes around over, and over, and over again, when really, “I wish people understood me. I’m so passionate about everything. I talk about that that comes from my heart. But people mistake my passion for anger.” And I’m like, “No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I’m not angry. I just really feel some kind of way about this situation. I want to get in there, I want to tackle whatever it is, I want to fix it.” Speaking of though, when we talk about the strong Black woman, when we talk about us wanting to stay in and fix it and make it all right, it comes to our resilience. So let’s talk about the resilience. What is resilience and how can we apply this term to the mental health of Black women?
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
So resilience, the definition is just the ability to bounce back, in a nutshell. And how we can apply to mental health, or this term, is to learn to be adaptable, is learning words like self-care and self-preservation. And as you mentioned, oftentimes we put everyone’s needs before us. We need to learn to put our needs before everybody else. And again, it’s not about being selfish, it’s about self-preservation.
Dr. Rolinda Shaw:
And self-love. And yes, and just building on that, I think that resilience is a beautiful protective factor that we learn to cope with life’s ups and downs, and it is definitely a strength. But I think that just culturally, we need to redefine what resilience means for us instead of being told what it is, meaning that we define what self-love and putting ourself first looks like.
Tammi Mac:
You mean individually or collectively as a Black-
Dr. Rolinda Shaw:
Individually, collectively, as a Black community, as a Black woman, as a receiver of mental health, because my resiliency skills are going to look very different from Dr. Billoups just dealing with day-to-day things. But being able to redefine what it means for us, to find those things to help us cope and deal with life better with the things that are designed to knock us down every step of the way.
Tammi Mac
And the fact that we are often knocked down. I’ve talked to another doctor on this podcast that mentioned they wouldn’t even let her put PhD title behind her name. And so we are knocked down in the office. We are knocked down at home in a literal sense sometimes when we’re dealing with these intimate domestic issues. So the question becomes, there’s a certain percentage of Black women who won’t even seek help. And I’ve talked to Black men and I’ve talked on this podcast about Black men who definitely have a harder time seeking help, but why is it that Black women won’t do that?
Dr. Rolinda Shaw:
Well, I think that there’s just so much stigma. We are taught collectively as a Black community that we, it’s better to keep our problems in the home. So you don’t want to reach out for help and admit you have a problem. So it’s very early ingrained in us that depression and anxiety and trauma, it’s natural. Everybody has it, you just deal with it. These aren’t things that can be so hurtful to your lives that you should seek help. So changing that narrative is important. And also just allowing the… I’m sorry, I forgot the second part of your question.
Tammi Mac:
It’s okay. I’m going to ask Dr. Billoups the same question though. Why are we less likely to seek help, than our White counterparts, obviously?
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
I think part of it, as you mentioned, a lot of it is stigma, but the other parts I think we just don’t know. We feel that these things are natural. “This is how I’ve been all my life, so this is normal to me. So what am I seeking?”
Tammi Mac:
“This is who I am.”
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
“This is who I am. So what am I seeking help for? This is how big mama did it. This is how my mother did it. So why am I asking for help, because this is how we live.”
Tammi Mack:
Wow. That’s interesting. So we think that it’s okay to live by the traditions of where we come from. I often wonder that, because we come from slavery, and I don’t mean that in a inception sense. I mean that’s what we’ve gone through, that’s the part that they tell us. That’s the part that we know about the most. And there was nothing good about that time period for us. So if we’re still relying on the efforts and the solutions of slavery, how in the heck can they be applied in 2023?
Dr. Rolinda Shaw:
Exactly. And a lot of it has to do with, like Dr. Billoups says, is really getting the word out there and normalizing these conversations about mental health that we don’t have to struggle. There are different ways of helping. It doesn’t have to be individual therapy. It can be support groups. It can be finding mentorship in your community among women that are like-minded and goal-driven like you, or even a mommy support group, just people that have the same goals and want to support each other and lift each other.
Tammi Mac:
But Dr. Billoups, we’re so busy. How do we have time for that? We got these kids, I got this job, I got soccer. I don’t know all that stuff y’all with children got to do with the, I got to make them dinner, I got to make them breakfast, the lunch, I got to do it all. I got to clean the house. I got to make love to my husband. That becomes pretty chore-able too. I don’t know if that’s a word, but I made it up to date.
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
I like it. I think it starts off with creating boundaries and learning to say, no. You don’t owe anyone an explanation. No is a statement itself, because like you said, we are pulled many different ways, and we want to-
Tammi Mac:
I don’t know how to fit therapy in there.
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
That’s a good question, but you have to find a way. So here’s the thing, if we don’t seek help, the body will force us to get help. There’s a book called The Body Keeps the Score, and when we act in a way and we’re not addressing our mental health needs, then we start to have chronic medical issues.
Tammi Mac:
And we definitely check on that. Once you can’t literally and physically deal with making love to your husband, and going to soccer games, and now you’ve got a physical problem. So I never even thought of it like that. It’s the mental problems that create the physical problems.
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
Yes, absolutely.
Tammi Mac:
Oh man.
Dr. Rolinda Shaw:
And we are statistically, we have a higher percentage of medical issues like hypertension, diabetes, chronic inflammation, heart disease, all of these things are relevant and prominent in our community, because it’s so ingrained within us to deal with the mental anguish that if we’re not actively trying to make space, and time, and solutions for it, then like you said, the body is going to let you know it’s going to slow you down.
Tammi Mac:
Wow. Well, I was going to ask what can we do to help ourselves to support our own mental wellness? But you just said it, but I’ll ask in case there’s something else. Dr. Billoups, what can we do?
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
To help ourselves?
Tammi Mac:
Yes.
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
Well, I think this is a good start.
Tammi Mac:
Okay.
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
Definitely having a lot of conversations-
Tammi Mac:
Cheers here, cheers to here, cheer to here.
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
A lot of conversations about mental health. I also think it’s important for individuals to see that as Black women, Black psychologists, maybe they’ll want to seek help, because it’s important to sit in front of somebody that looks like you, and could understand you, and speaks the same lingo. And I think this will open up doors for many people.
Tammi Mac:
And not judge you.
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
And not judge you and actually know what you’ve experienced.
Tammi Mack:
And validate that experience.
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
Absolutely.
Tammi Mac:
As opposed to saying, “Well, can you look at it this way?” And so I said, “No, I understand. I get what you’re saying.”
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
Absolutely.
Tammi Mac:
Dr. Shaw?
Dr. Rolinda Shaw:
And also there is nothing bad about holding onto that stereotype and image of the strong Black woman, because we are, and we all embody it, and we all move in it differently. And that’s okay. The problem becomes when we let that define us, where we don’t allow ourself to feel validated or important enough to reach out for help, or say that we need support, or accept that things aren’t going as we’d like, or we’re not happy, or even allowing ourselves to fail. We don’t allow ourselves to fail. We take it as a personal avenue of shame when everybody in life hits roadblocks. Everybody stumbles. But we have to be honest and real with ourselves and be able to say that, you know what, we’re not above that. And reaching out isn’t weakness. Reaching out for support is strength.
Tammi Mac:
Yes.
Dr. Loretta Billoups:
Absolutely.
Tammi Mac:
And we are here to give you strength every single week because you are not alone. So thank you so much, Dr. Shaw and Dr. Billoups. I appreciate you being here. We hope you learned a few things about your mental health and wellness, and if you want to find out more, you can visit our websites and we’re going to provide a link in a bit. We’ll have some resources as well as more information about our guest, but more importantly, we hope you will come back and join us on our next program. And remember, we wish you well on your health journey, your journey to good health and satisfying lives. I’m Tammi Mac, and you are not alone.
Mental Health Resources
Ayana Therapy – Mental healthcare for marginalized and intersectional communities
National Queer & Trans Therapists of Color Network